Jen Szaro, AESP: 0:07

Welcome back to the Energy Beat podcast. It's springtime here in Florida and it's a time when car owners wash off the dust and grime for their winter roads and start planning those weekend road trips. Today's podcast focuses on what EV customers and their likely buyers think about utility-managed charging programs. We'll be speaking with two experts today from Franklin Energy Leanne, head Director of Emerging Solutions, and Elizabeth Turnbull, director of Market Development for Transportation Electrification. Using AESP's Electric Vehicle Driver Experience Framework as a guide, these experts will be talking about their EV-man managed charging voice of the customer research and diving into some surprising takeaways that paint a much more nuanced and complex ecosystem for managed charging in the future. So with that, let's get started. Why don't you start, leanne, by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 1:02

I have been in the energy industry for over 20 years. I did a lot of consumer insights and research for a consulting firm for utilities all over the country Also some energy efficient product manufacturers as well and ended up at a utility as an energy efficiency solutions manager. And then I've been at Franklin Energy for five years and I've done a variety of things. I was a product manager and now I'm a solutions manager, focused primarily on our transportation electrification solutions and also working as a side gig on our state energy office solutions.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 1:40

Love it. Very exciting work. All right, Elizabeth, tell me a little bit about yourself as well and what you are currently focused on for Franklin Energy.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 1:48

Yeah, thanks, jen. Well, as you said, I'm the director of market development for transportation electrification here at Franklin Energy, understand the EV market and the regulatory landscape in which all of this work is unfolding, and then work with utilities around the country to support the design and then implementation of their EV programs. My background includes a decade of experience at investor-owned electric utilities here on the West Coast. At those utilities I was involved in designing, launching and implementing EV programs everything from residential managed charging to fleet infrastructure to utility-owned and operated DC fast charging. So a lot of different program experience across the whole breadth of what happens at utilities with EVs.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 2:45

Well, it's perfect that you're here then today to talk with us a little bit about how important it is to get the EV customer and fleet owner experience right. Clearly you've had some experience with both residential markets and fleets, and so I think that's going to be really helpful to the conversation today. So, talking about EVDX, our EV Driver Experience Initiative, a lot of this focuses around ensuring in an existing time of use or manage charging program or even just use public charging stations. So just making sure that that experience is consumer centric, helping to build awareness and knowledge about electric vehicles as well in a positive light, and making sure that the charging experience is a good one so that we don't create detractors here, especially in the late, early adopter phase when we're getting ready to go to early majority. So if you want to learn more about EVDX, you can go to asporg forward, slash EVDX and you know. Speaking of charging, elizabeth, tell me a little bit more about the differences between level one, level two and fast charging for our audience.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 4:06

Yeah, sure thing. So level one charging is typically done with a cable that comes with the light duty vehicle and I think a lot of the research and things we're going to be talking about today really are about light duty vehicles owned by what utilities think of as residential customers. So a lot of those cars come with that level one cable and it just plugs into a standard 110 volt outlet. So this level one charging happens most commonly at home. It could also happen in some parking garages and other creative ways. I certainly have run a level one charging cable out the window of an Airbnb, but I don't recommend using an extension cord. I should always add that for level one. So it adds about three or four miles of range per hour of time that the car is plugged in. So it's pretty slow, but if you can plug in for 10 hours overnight you can get 30 to 40 miles of range.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 5:01

So I hear most plug-in owners. If they have a hybrid plug-in vehicle, it's a great option, right? So my understanding is you don't always need to have a level two or access to fast charging if you have a plug-in electric vehicle that isn't fully electric. Is that what you're kind of seeing in the market?

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 5:19

Yeah, I think that's definitely the case. I think there are reasons that consumers want level two beyond just the charging time. But I think, as's definitely the case, I think there are reasons that consumers want level two beyond just the charging time, but I think as far as just getting the car charged, particularly for plug-in hybrids, level one can work. Honestly, jen, I was an EV driver for six years before I got a level two charger and I was able to charge two vehicles on level one for a long time.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 5:44

So I think, depending on your driving habits and the use case, it can be a really good application and it works really nicely for folks who are renting or who live in multifamily or, for whatever reason, can't or don't want to install a level two charger, and so I'm a big fan of level one. I think we need to be talking more about it. But I also understand why. You know there are reasons why people want level two, and you know one of those reasons is the faster charge. Right. It gets you about 25 miles of range for every hour that you're plugged in. It's more expensive, right. The chargers in a residential setting cost probably $400 to $700. And then you've got to do all the right wiring and have panel capacity. But many of those level two chargers are networked, typically over Wi-Fi in residential settings or over cellular networks in commercial settings, so then that can be controlled or accessed by a phone app or a back-end platform. So level two offers not just a higher charging speed but a little bit more control to the person who owns the charger.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 6:49

And I know many utilities now have incentive programs for using a level two charger that has intelligence that you can tap into. So I think that could be another great incentive. And I know having moved from not having level two charging in my home to having it for our fully electric car was night and day. It was wonderful. I was so excited when we got ours installed. Now I do understand that not everyone can easily install it. If you don't have a single family home or a service upgrade might be cost prohibitive. You know that might prevent you from even purchasing the car in some cases, I would imagine. But I know there are other solutions like DC fast charging, maybe in the community. So maybe talk to us a little bit about DC fast charging as well and how that's being used as a solution for EV drivers.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 7:36

Yeah, absolutely so. Dc fast charging. You know the reason we call it. That is, it takes AC power from the grid and converts it to DC power, which is what the battery uses. It can range from 30 kilowatts on the low end to 350 kilowatts on the high end, so that's like a 10x difference in how fast the car could charge, depending on the fast charger. These chargers are really expensive. They can cost, you know, $250,000. So this typically only happens in public. Or you know, if you have a bus fleet or something like that, you might have DC fast charging there. But you know this isn't for for residential settings.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 8:17

And in some cases they can take a dedicated substation to install, correct?

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 8:21

I mean probably not for a single one DC fast charger, but you start getting into charging plazas. 10 to 20 fast chargers yeah, that's a lot of power, right? Big draw If there's 350 kilowatts each.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 8:37

I'm always driving by the Tesla plazas with the Tesla chargers and there's like a line too with the waiting to get into those. You know, there's like a line too with the waiting to get into those Never seems to be quite the same line for the other types of vehicles charging their vehicles. So I know I have a Kia EV6, which I adore, and it charges very quickly, which I love about it. It can take high voltage. But there's also that challenge that not all cars can charge at the same rate. On DC fast chargers, right, even if it's stated that it might be a 350 kW charger, for instance, a Nissan Leaf might only be able to still charge at 50 kW tops Is that right?

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 9:16

Yeah, that's exactly right, jen. So when you're looking at cars it's worth looking at how fast they can charge. You know it has to be not just the charger but also the car that can charge at that speed. I would say for sort of the faster ended chargers and new vehicles, a driver can probably get about 10 miles of range for every minute that they're plugged in right. So you stop for 10 minutes, you could get 100 miles, and for those of us who've been driving the cars that charge slower, those new charging speeds are pretty spicy and fun.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 9:49

Oh yeah, we took our EV6 on a road trip out of state and it was just magical to be able to stop and refuel within 30 minutes and be back on the road.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 9:59

I know we tried the same thing with our Nissan Leaf and it didn't really enjoy getting fast charge more than one time within an hour period, so it was a much slower and different experience from the charging standpoint, but it was great to have those experiences and be able to compare the vehicles, and you know it's. I think it's important for us to make sure we're getting that information out to potential buyers and drivers so that they do understand the differences. So tell me, leanne, speaking of different types of customers, you're doing some pretty amazing market research right now and I'd love to hear more about it. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about the current and likely EV purchaser? What does their disposable income look like? Are they a renter? Are they a homeowner? Are they living in single or multifamily housing, and what are you seeing as the distinct differences between current EV owners and future likely buyers?

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 10:52

We undertook this research primarily because Franklin Energy is an implementation partner for utilities for electrification, transportation initiatives and we're seeing a lot of filings, we're seeing a lot of RFPs where utilities are sort of presenting a design for managed charging in particular. That requires certain things for eligibility for participation. That requires certain things for eligibility for participation and we like very much to sort of have a customer-centric approach to program design. And I'd read a lot of studies about, you know, the demand reduction impacts of various types of managed charging programs, but I'd never read anything that really got into the end user. The potential participant got into the end user, the potential participant. You know what were their thoughts about it. And so we conducted a survey at the beginning of this year to try to determine what were the expectations of EV drivers and likely buyers and what were their preferences and what are their current charging behaviors and what do they think about these utility managed charging programs. And so we surveyed 390, either current owners or near-term buyers. So they had to say they already owned an electric vehicle or a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle or they intended to buy one within the next year. And so we asked them a battery of questions. But, to your point. What we found was not a huge difference between the current owner population of electric vehicles and the near-term buyer population.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 12:29

We did find that there are more women in the prospective buyer population than current owners. Right now it's about 60-40 male versus female in current owners. But you flip it, it's about 60-40 female to male among the prospective buyer population. And then if you look at the age distribution right now it tends to skew between, say, 25 to 44, but you could expect future buyers to be a little older. You're seeing a significant increase in the 55 plus age category.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 13:05

Also, if you look at household income, we set a floor. You know bottom line most electric vehicles cost more on average than other vehicles in the market. So I wanted to make sure that I was talking to a population that wasn't just aspirational. So we set a 75K plus household income criteria to participate in the study. We also wanted people who already own a vehicle to participate in the study as well. But there really was no difference in terms of household income. Home ownership we had no difference between renters and homeowners but interestingly, the likely buyer population was even more likely than the current owner population to be living in a single family home, though there is a significant population that are renters and that are living in multifamily, so interesting differences. Looks like maybe there's going to be a shift to slightly older, more women in the EV buyer population.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 14:04

That's really really interesting data. I am really impressed to see women sort of taking the lead in this next generation of purchasers, but also I love it that we're seeing older generations get comfortable with this technology as well. I also I love it that we're seeing older generations get comfortable with this technology as well. I know some of the key benefits we're seeing for electric vehicles are the total cost of ownership over the life of the vehicle. So do you think that's a driver for providing some padding maybe over time, of owning a vehicle and you know, giving that there's so much risk with the price of gasoline going up and down, you think that's a driver as well for the older generations to be considering it.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 14:41

So I think that that lower cost of ownership and, in particular, lower maintenance requirements for electric vehicles are incredibly attractive to women. If you think about sort of that traditional experience of taking your car to get it worked on, you know the stereotypical response that women get when they roll into an automotive repair place. You know there's a dread. At least for me there's a dread for that. I'm not an expert on vehicles. What's ironic is, neither is my husband, but he gets treated very differently on the auto dealership lot and particularly in the repair area of the auto dealership lot.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 15:25

So I think that is an interesting driver for women and I think in general the early adopter population tends to be younger by nature and it also skews male versus female. And so I think as we're moving towards the meaty middle of the market, you're going to see more older buyers that are getting more familiar. They tend to sort of have a more of a wait and see attitude about new technology and as these new models roll out you begin to see driver satisfaction increasing and and also I think you know the access to charging has been a bit of a barrier. As we're seeing more public charging get constructed, that's also going to help support the adoption of this technology.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 16:07

I totally agree with you. You know it's funny. So I just had to take my car in for just regular maintenance, my EV6. And so we took it there and the dealer was like, oh, we're so excited to have you here. You know, you get free oil changes for life. And I just sort of looked at the guy and I was like, oh well, I don't have oil so I don't need that. Can I at least get windshield wiper replacements? You know it's so interesting that the dynamic you're right is changing with the dealerships and with repair organizations in that conversation. That's even happening when you bring your car in for maintenance. So I can see that already happening and I expect it will continue to go that route. Well, let's talk a little bit about DC fast charging. So how important do you think DC fast charging is to the development of the market here? Elizabeth, what are your thoughts on?

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 17:00

that I think DC fast charging is incredibly important to help build range confidence in new EV drivers and really to support that dream of the all-American road trip right, and I think that's why so much of the federal funding for EV charging that was wrapped up in the bipartisan infrastructure bill is focused on building DC fast charging along highway corridors around the country. That's commonly referred to as the NEVI program and we also hear a lot about DC fast charging because it's expensive and the industry is still trying to figure out the right business models to support it. But DC fast charging is also really tough on the grid. It requires a lot of power and then that power is only used for 20 minutes. So it's important to drivers to have it when and where you need it.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 17:49

But I would say it's not the best way to charge a car on a day-to-day basis.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 17:55

The best way to charge a car is as slowly as possible in a way that still meets your driving needs right, and since most vehicles sit parked for 22 hours a day, that could be level one or level two. So I think level two continues to be really important in the community. It's great in multifamily settings, at movie theaters or retail locations or workplaces, destination locations like parks, anywhere where the car is going to be sitting for probably two or more hours, is a great application for level two. And then at home, we've talked about level one. I'm a huge advocate, but I also understand that EV owners want level two chargers at home, and so that's one of the reasons we wanted to do this research that Leanne conducted. And we also know for utilities that level two offers a really strong pathway for load flexibility, since those devices are networked and can be controlled either by the utility or by the EV driver. So we see a lot of interest from utilities and in the regulatory space in home level two charging because of that load flexibility.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 19:09

It is incredibly aspirational. I couldn't believe how popular the idea of owning your own level two home charger was. I mean the survey population 77% of current drivers said they already own a level two charger and three quarters of those who don't plan to buy one. And if you look at the likely buyer population, 94% of them say they plan to own a level two charger and that includes 92% of current renters. So you have to take it with a grain of salt. It is lovely the idea of having that kind of charging convenience out in your garage, but we know the reality is that not everyone can own their own level two charger. You've got renters who have no way to own their own charger. You've got condominium owners that may or may not be allowed to install a level two charger at their location. There's just a variety of reasons. Maybe people live in an older home, they don't have the panel amperage capacity to be able to install their own charger. But it's important to know that that desire is there and it certainly was surprising to me.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 20:21

I know we've been reviewing common demand response program designs, you know, for managed charging. Most utilities are including a level two charger as a part of that plan and we keep saying that's great. I'm not sure, number one, that everyone's going to want to buy it. What we heard was yes, we're interested in your level two managed charging program, but it's pretty rude to ask me to buy that equipment in order to participate in your program Exactly.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 20:53

So the implication for utilities is that they're probably going to need to offer more than they're currently offering to really make that attractive. So you know, if you look at the average cost of a level two charger is six hundred dollars plus. If you look at the market leaders selling the product and then if you look at the cost of installation, it's going to run twelve hundred dollars plus. That's a significant investment. In some markets it might be $2,000 plus, just depending upon the cost for an electrician in your service area. So the idea that all you're going to offer is a $200 rebate off the cost of a charger it's not going to get you there. And these respondents said we need more than that. We need at least 500 bucks. We need you to help pay for the cost of the installation. So utilities should be thinking about that.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 21:43

What other types of programs are you seeing being offered right now for customers to be incentivized to not just buy the vehicles but also change their charging behaviors in a way that benefits the utility?

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 21:59

also change their charging behaviors in a way that benefits the utility. We definitely are seeing a level two managed charging program, but we also are seeing behavioral programs, and by behavioral it could be a vehicle telematics-based behavioral program. It could be an interval usage data program where you share your usage or the utility analyzes your usage to determine whether or not you are charging in off-peak periods. One of the behavioral programs that has been published a study published about it was focused on basically, you set your charger settings and send me a screenshot of those charger settings and that is the way you get enrolled and that would be your charger app and then we're going to monitor your usage to see if you seem to be complying with those charger settings and in most cases, the vast majority of participants are doing so. Most people charge overnight anyway and plan to charge overnight. Even among those that we surveyed, likely buyers were significantly more likely to be charging from like 10 pm and later. Now there was a surprising percentage who would charge at other parts of the day, in particular that end of the workday time period where you roll up between you know at five o'clock and plug in, and I think there's certainly going to be the need for managing that end of the workday spike. And then we've also got a lot of people who are charging during the day because more and more of us, since COVID, are working from home and so those nighttime patterns are not maybe as reliable as they used to be.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 23:34

But that behavioral idea was very popular and that's what my biggest takeaway from this study is that you're going to need different flavors to engage with all driver, all parts of the driver population, and you want to get them engaged as soon as possible so that you can help influence their charging times and get them used, to get them into the habit of charging at the best times. We tested telematics versus EVSE, and EVSE was a little more popular than telematics. But there are certain concerns that were expressed about telematics and if a utility correctly addresses those concerns, then I think that it's possible that you can encourage more people to participate. So the biggest concern what would you guess it is with a telematics-based program where it's managed charging, where you're going to basically control my charging and shut it off?

Jen Szaro, AESP: 24:32

I feel like it's just the whole control issue in itself, right Sort of the big brother not having the ability to when you want to go, charge when you want to charge.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 24:41

And mostly it's about don't don't you turn off my charging when I'm away from home, because obviously I need to be charging then Right. And so you need to communicate that you've got geofencing capabilities. You've got to be able to. You can identify where they are charging and promise not to turn off their charging when they are charging away from home. But mostly it's about I'm not going to have.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 25:05

This is across the board, every single program. You see the concern that they're not going to be fully charged when they need a full charge, and so you've got to make sure that you are offering a more sophisticated approach to your managed charging program. You need to be able for them to tell you what they're driving, how far they're driving and when they need to be charged. Dynamic approach a more optimized approach to the way you set up your participants in, when their chargers activate or aren't activated. You've got to make sure you're meeting their needs and make them comfortable with the whole idea so that they don't think they're going to get stranded when they get up to drive in the morning.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 25:52

I think that's so important to mention because you want to make sure the driver experience is a positive one. You know they're already making a change in behavior by charging, or, you know, fueling their vehicle at home or at a charger that isn't a gas station, so it's a different experience. So now just making sure that if you are engaging with them in a charging program a managed charging program specifically that you're doing it in a way that still meets their needs, I think that's so spot on. So, Elizabeth, tell me what are the implications of these findings on how you're thinking about new program designs for EV charging, especially managed charging programs?

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 26:33

Yeah, I mean. I think the first takeaway is people want to charge at home. It's one of the best parts of having an EV is not ever having to go to the gas station again, and for me, because I always come at this with an equity lens, that has really big implications for utilities. In terms of programs for multifamily, I think that any utility that's offering a residential charging program needs to be looking at what they can do for multifamily as well. I think to Leanne's point behavioral programs for managed charging are worth considering and those can include things like a TOU rate right. These can be pretty low cost on the implementation side and they're appealing to customers. I think from a grid perspective, there's sort of a ceiling to the applicability of those types of programs because they have the potential to create artificial load peaks, right, the TOU rate switches at 9 pm and all of a sudden everybody starts charging. But near term, where we are with adoption, I don't think we should overlook program designs like that, because I think they can deliver value and they're appealing to customers.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 27:49

Actually the EV rate plan we tested was the number one preferred if you had them rank, all these programs that we tested and that one ended up, 48 percent of respondents put that rank, that as their number one or their number two option.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 28:06

And that's the time of use rate, right? So, yeah, don't charge in these times. Charge in these times and you'll get a better rate.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 28:12

Right, and what's lovely about that is you maintain a sense of control about that right. Like my charging is not going to be controlled by someone else, but I can control my behavior and that's very attractive.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 28:25

But you could be yeah, like you said, you could pay a peak rate if that's when you really really need to charge and not have to worry about it, just know that you're going to have to pay a little bit more. So, from a regulatory standpoint, let's discuss how regulation and legislative trends right now might help or hinder utilities, and what are your findings on this research, elizabeth?

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 28:48

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a ton of interest in managed charging in the regulatory space, right, and that interest comes from utilities. It comes from regulators space, right, and that interest comes from utilities, it comes from regulators, it comes from stakeholders. It probably doesn't as much come from customers, right? That interest is there. I think. Probably today that interest outstrips the grid value that can be cost-effectively obtained by managing residential charging load. But what I do think is important today is starting to condition these EV drivers to understand what type of charging behavior is good for the grid versus what isn't, and setting those incentives that help them adopt the right behaviors and habits at the start of their EV journey. And there are local distribution advantages of managed charging as well, at sort of like the feeder or transformer level versus the bulk system level. So you know there's a lot of potential here. But I think that you know it's important to bring that voice of the customer research.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 29:49

It's important that program designs be structured in a way that give customers choice, right, whether it's between a time of use or an active managed charging program based on the charger or if there's something with vehicle telematics.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 30:08

But there are also ways to shape what customers are most interested in. We just saw a decision in Colorado where the utility is offering different flavors of managed charging but the incentives for the more active managed charging are higher than the incentives for the behavioral, and so it gives an option for customers who aren't quite comfortable with active, but it sends a clear signal that there's more grid value and the utility and the regulators would prefer that people be enrolling in that active managed charging program design. So there are a lot of different options and I'm not totally convinced that the regulatory landscape knows exactly what it wants right now. But we all kind of know that there's a there there with managed charging, and so it's a great time for utilities to be really drilling into what they want, doing the work to understand the voice of their customer and what's it going to take to convince customers to do what we want them to do, and then offering these programs in a choice based way that test those different approaches and different incentive levels and different grid results.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 31:19

I really agree with that. I think it's so important to give options right. People really want options. Maybe not so many options, but they want at least enough options that give them the flexibility to match up with their behaviors. And I think it's important to your point that the regulators give utilities some flexibility on being able to try different things and see what sticks for the customer and what makes sense for the customer, and not be sort of locked into a specific framework or style of program. So I think that's going to be really important to our long-term success is to give utilities the opportunity to innovate here in this space, because we're all learning together, right? I mean, none of us has it 100% figured out and people do not all act exactly the same, and so I think it's important that we have variety to meet all sorts of needs, especially when we're thinking about energy equity.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 32:20

I was surprised that so many likely buyers and current owners were interested in participating in these programs. You know, we tested these descriptions based on customer feedback, based on what we picked up in qualitative conversations about what the big concerns were, and I think we we found the sweet spot, you know, for these descriptions, that sort of address, most of the concerns that we were aware of and we have like 75 percent plus likely, very likely to to participate in most of the programs. The one program that did not get extremely high marks was V to G. The one program that did not get extremely high marks was V2G.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 33:01

That is a little bit scary sounding to consumers, that idea that you might pull charge off my vehicle battery, like is it going to harm my vehicle battery? Wow, that's pretty high-handed. Thank you very much, utility. I don't want you pulling charge off my battery but you know, I think it's new technology and again, I think there'll be early adopters who will pick that up, especially if utilities are willing to pay a premium for participation in that kind of program.

Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy: 33:29

And I think, as you begin to get case studies and some folks explaining to their neighbors and their friends how much money they're making off that program and it's not harming their car at all. You know, then I think it'll begin to catch on. But overall, current drivers are more comfortable with all of these programs across the board because they are comfortable with their charging needs right. They realize they don't need a full charge every day. They realize that it is okay to limit when they charge to overnight. You know, the new drivers, the potential owners, are the ones that are not so sure yet, but as they get comfortable they'll be more likely to participate. But the more that you can get engaged early on, the better.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 34:19

That makes perfect sense. So depending on where they are in their ownership cycle, they may lean toward one program or another. That's a really good point.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 34:28

I think people learn right, and that's you know, when you hear something like 94% of likely buyers plan to get a level two charger, I think about all the people who say, well, I can't get a level two charger, so I'm not going to identify myself as a likely buyer, right? So I think we have to be talking to customers about all of these different options and making it clear that there's no one thing that's better or worse than the other. Right? You know this infrastructure is expensive and you know it doesn't have to be the perfect solution. A level one hack I thought we were going to have. We were going to get our EV and charge on level one for a month before we got a level two charger.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 35:12

We ended up doing it for six years.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 35:15

So you learn along the way. And I think to Leanne's point I'm not surprised that the research revealed that current owners are much more comfortable with all of these program designs than likely buyers, and so to me that means that there's a lot of education to continue to do with likely buyers and maybe that's not the right time to be talking to them about managed charging. Maybe the right time is. Six months later you can come along and say, hey, how's that charging thing going, and would you be interested in letting us pay you to make that flexible? And you know. Again to Leanne's point. It's all about how you talk about it. Right, that car is the customer's asset first. They use it, they need it, and I think there's a way to say managed charging is an opportunity to earn revenue on your asset when you're not otherwise using it. But we certainly shouldn't be talking about it as something that utilities have an ingrained right to do. That's just not going to sit well with the customer. It's their car.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 36:19

Yeah, exactly, it's their assets and they're the ones who pay for it. Yeah, I'm not surprised at all that any kind of vehicle degrade programs would be sort of the lowest on the list, just because you know you want to know that your battery is going to survive. I know a lot of utilities are now working with vehicle manufacturers to prove out the impacts on V2G programs to battery life and you know, I think we'll get more research in that area as we get further into the industry. So it's so exciting. This is such an exciting field to me just because I personally have been driving an EV for so long started back in. Well gosh, when the first, even before the first Leaf came out, we were driving a converted Prius plug-in and then, of course, moved to the Leaf after that and now I'm on my third EV. It's awesome to think about that. So I know I'm not your typical buyer, but it's exciting to see that the future of our transportation market is changing and people are bought into it.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 37:20

I know my son. It's really funny. I have two boys who drive now both drive EVs and one of them we had to do a rental car and pulled up to the gas station and he didn't know how to pump gas. He didn't know how to pump gas, and it was just one of those aha moments about how our lives are changing, related to electric transportation, and how this next generation is going to have potentially an entirely different transportation ownership experience, which is really exciting to think about. That is very exciting. Absolutely, that's very exciting. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me and for sharing information about this amazing research that Franklin Energy has undertaken, and I know you're also doing tons of great work with other utilities and partners, and I'm excited to see what you come up with next in your research. I'm excited to see what you come up with next in your research. So thank you for being here with us today and I hope to have you back again soon on the program.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 38:24

Thank you so much. Thank you really appreciate the opportunity to talk.

Jen Szaro, AESP: 38:30

All right. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, we've got a great initiative called EVdx ev driver experience and franklin energy was one of our founding supporters for that program. So if you haven't checked it out yet, go to wwwaesporg forward slash evdx to learn more. Thank you so much.

Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin Energy: 39:07

We'll see you next time.